I don't deserve happiness for what I've done

[thefinalribbon]

For as long as I can remember, I've been obsessive about sex. At 4/5, a girl at that same age would always urge me to kiss her, and I would do it, because I liked it. At those same ages, I would take a girl to a secluded area in my babysitter's backyard and repeatedly ask her to lift up her shirt, in this disgusting, predatory tone. Once in Kindergarten, I dropped a pencil to look up a girl's dress. In first, I'd repeatedly slap a girl's butt, KNOWING I probably shouldn't be doing that.

In sixth grade (age 13), I had a whole thing with a boy, I would always pressure him into doing stuff, the worst of it being making him touch my penis and send dirty pictures to me. I would never use anything like force, just words to make him relent. At 14, I would always bring up sex to online friends. At 14-15, when I learned the word coercion, I realized that's what I had done to the boy, and since then, my self-hate has festered into what it is today.

There's more than what I said above too. To this day, I don't understand why I was like that, at so young. I often wish I'm just not remembering a molestation that happened to me just to KIND of "explain" it. I'm still so "hypersexual" to this day too.

This all hurts badly because I feel horrific for contributing to why growing up as a girl is so horrible. The boy I pressured USED to "be a girl". What if he transitioned because of what I did? To never risk being subject to that ever again?

The misogyny I perpetuated makes me hate myself. I also struggle extremely with gender dysphoria, and having crippling depression about the fact that I am not a girl. But how could I be when I've done all of this monstrous stuff? I have a bad wandering eye too. I try not to stare at women who's faces and bodies and butts I find attractive, just small repeated glances, but even those I KNOW I shouldn't be doing, yet I do anyway.

How can I sit here and say I hate how people label AMABs as sex pests when I'm proof of it? I can't stand myself, and how I ruined my chance of being a woman, OR just being happy at all because of the monster I was when I was younger.

[Latha]

Hello and welcome to the boards, Thefinalribbon. It sounds like you've been struggling with guilt around your actions as a child for quite some time now. It must have taken some courage, so I'm glad you reached out to us.

Some of what you described sounds like the regular and mutual curiosity we'd expect of children ("At 4/5, a girl at that same age would always urge me to kiss her"), or the actions of young people who don't know how to handle an new topic ('At 14, I would always bring up sex to online friends."). Others, not so much. I understand that you look back on your actions and feel bad for the effect you might have had on these other kids. It is possible that they were hurt, and I do take that seriously. That said, I would not say that your actions are exceptional or anything that could possibly justify the harsh way you think of yourself now. You are not monstrous. Your actions in the past have not ruined your chance of happiness, or of being a woman. They just sound like you were a kid who hurt people when you did not understand better. That is a description that can apply to a lot of people, in one way or another.

Let's place this in context. Children are not always good to each other--they are not born knowing how to be moral. Rather, they often need to be taught how to be good to each other. This is something that is learnt over time. If I hit someone -> they get hurt (and that is a bad thing, because I can imagine what it means to be hurt, and I don't want to cause that) is not always an obvious equation for young people, and they can know it sometimes and not in others. I'm no expert, but I think part of growing up involves developing the associations that make moral thinking like this more... automatic.

So, children don't always treat people around them well--sometimes they bully each other, or repeatedly hurt each other because they don't know better, or haven't learnt to take what other people want into account. The thing is, a lot of the time kids like this change as they get older. Children can grow out of surprisingly hurtful behavior with the right guidance. This isn't monstrous--it is just human.

Your actions as a child involved attraction to people's bodies, but I think the nature of the problem is the same. It seems very much like you were a curious child who did not understand the affect you could be having on other people. When you were fifteen and learnt about coercion, it did click for you--it sounds like you didn't have the same kinds of interactions after that.

You are not proof that AMABs are sex pests. Sexual harassment or entitlement are not permanent behaviors inherent to people assigned male at birth. These are actions that people choose, and that are too often encouraged and taught under the systems we live under. The good thing is that at some point, you learnt that you should not interact with people in the way you did, and you started choosing differently.

Instead of being angry with yourself, I want to encourage you to think about the conditions that led to your behavior growing up. Do you feel like you are generally impulsive? How did you learn about topics like consent and attraction, or perhaps the more basic idea that we need to be careful while interacting with other people's bodies when you were a child? Think about how consent was modeled for you growing up--what were the good examples, and the not-so-good ones? Responsible and honest compassion will let you see your actions more clearly than self-recrimination, and that is what will help you have better relationships with people now.

The boy I pressured USED to "be a girl". What if he transitioned because of what I did? To never risk being subject to that ever again?

If this boy transitioned solely to deal with his feelings about your actions, I can't imagine that would help. For one, as I understand it, transitioning doesn't feel good for people who are not trans. But also, we know that transitioning doesn't really decrease how much people deal with harassment.

I try not to stare at women...

I wouldn't say you shouldn't be making small glances when you find someone attractive. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to a person, or to certain body parts--we just have to try be aware of the affect we could be having on the people we share space with. If I may ask, has anyone noticed that you are staring at them and given you feedback about it?

I can't stand myself, and how I ruined my chance of being a woman, OR just being happy at all because of the monster I was when I was younger.

Your actions when you were a child who didn't know better have no bearing on what you are allowed to want for yourself now. You are not monstrous. You haven't ruined your chance at being a woman, or of being happy. If you want to be a woman, you simply are one.

How does all this land with you?

[thefinalribbon]

Before anything, I want to thank you, from the bottom of my heart. It means a lot to me that you replied, that someone is willing to speak about this with me.

I don't remember much of anything growing up. I struggle with binge eating impulses currently, among other impulses I'm currently blanking on, so I suppose it could be safe to assume I've had impulse struggles since long ago too.

I want to say I learnt about consent through watching videos of internet figures getting into drama. The word "coercion" must've appeared in one of them, I learned what it was, then realized that what I had done to him had a term. However, at that time, I KNEW that the "pressure" of what I was saying had a chance of making him do it, and it kills me. I KNEW, even a little bit, that I probably shouldn't be doing this.

Consent, there wasn't much I had to go off of, really. I assume I learned about the same way then too. The MeToo movement was a thing when I was growing up, I think that had some part, but it's all very blurry. As for bad examples, it would be problematic kinks I had when young. I enjoyed and often wished an older woman would touch me against my will, in a "consensual non-consent" way. That's the only example I could think of, but it absolutely didn't help my development. Other than those, I don't remember much in the way of "consent" and examples I saw of it when young. Especially not "good" examples, I can't remember a single instance of that, other than people in videos saying "yes", and "more".

I hope not. He liked to draw, and often would draw this character with a male name as a sort-of stand-in for himself, so that could've been a sign; I hope so.

In 5th grade, I had a crush on this one girl, she would tell me not do it, but in a "joking" way; she would smile and laugh while telling me to stop. In, 10th (I want to say), I would take glances at another girl, and once when she came up to my desk to put a computer away, she held it up to her face, like she was shielding herself from something. I don't have confirmation, and she never said anything, but I worry it was because of me she was doing that. I can't say I remember anyone specifically coming up to me to tell me I'm staring and asking me to stop.

It lands oddly. One, I don't understand why you're encouraging me to pursue "being a woman". I could never be one. Even if I'm different how I am now than as a child, my actions still exist as something I did. I'd never be able to enter female-only spaces for example. One, because of the underlying fear that I'm making them share a space with someone who's performed these gross actions, and the fact that inevitably, I'd be attracted to some of them, when as a male, I'm not really supposed to be in there in the first place. You, therapists, and my mother, all have told me varying versions of the same thing, I don't understand why. Why help and encourage me? Two, this all just makes me wonder, how and why I was like this, at so young. It couldn't have all been that girl's actions that led me down this. Did I come across some dirty magazine? I just want to know why I'm so, gross.

[char]

You, therapists, and my mother, all have told me varying versions of the same thing, I don't understand why. Why help and encourage me?

Hi thefinalribbon. I'm so sorry that you've been having a rough time navigating these feelings. To me, it sounds like you've deeply regretted what you've done, but you also feel like you're not "punished" enough for it--even when others (like your mother and your therapist) have stressed that you don't need to. From your perspective, I wonder how/why you feel like punishment, shame, and isolation would benefit you. As Latha mentioned, your actions when you were a child who didn't know better have no bearing on what you are allowed to want for yourself now. If identifying as a woman and transitioning is something you would like to do, then by all means, you are free to do it. (And if not, that's okay, too. We're not here to decide your gender identity.) You are not just your past; you're also the person you currently are, and the person you will be in the future. Additionally, I wonder how finding what makes you did these things in the past would help you. I feel like it can be challenging to pinpoint a single or several reasons, and what should we do if these were discovered?

You deserve understanding, compassion, and support to become a better person because you are you: a human being. We all make mistakes, and many times it is because we do not know better, and are surrounded by systems that allow certain actions to exist. Even if you knew what you did was wrong. After recognizing our mistakes, we can always learn to become a better version of ourselves. Maybe this approach sounds surprising to you, but for many people, shaming and ostracizing others do not help address their actions and be held accountable.

[thefinalribbon]

Hi Char, thank you too for replying to me. I didn't think anyone would respond to me at all, I'm happy both you and Latha have offered help.

I feel like it's what I deserve because of the harm I've put into the world. Even if I was a child, like I said above, I've contributed to why growing up as a girl is so traumatizing. My life is privileged as a male no matter what mental issues I suffer from, so my punishment is having to live with them. The shame is just, feels like the price to pay. Isolation is both what I feel like I deserve, and stops me from potentially making anyone else uncomfortable with glances, actions, anything.

It would help because it'd make me feel less...like something is wrong. I shouldn't be such sexual person, but I am, and that's been "me" since I was a young child. Even if it is just my personality for whatever reason, isn't that bad? When most of my attraction is towards women, I'm a net negative on the world with my weirdly high drive for anything sexual. I can't remember anything that could've made me like this from very young though, which just reinforces I'm just...defective, like this.

It's hard to extend the same grace I give others that I give to myself. Trying to move on from the shame and guilt makes me feel evil. How can I just move on and think I deserve happiness? Even whenever I feel sad for myself, I just think back to all of this. I don't deserve to act like I deserve pity for trauma I have, especially when it's all mental/self-inflicted.

[lilikoi]

Hi there,

I notice that you focus a lot on the negative impact these experiences have had on others. There is also a negative impact on you as well considering the shame you feel about your sexuality and the dysphoric relationship to your body and gender. I wonder if you could offer the same consolation to yourself as you do the people you worry about having harmed.

As a child, it is common to explore boundaries with other people and to be fascinated with bodies and sex. Developmentally, children are not equipt to consider the consequences and impact of their actions. That type of reasoning is done in our prefrontal cortex which researchers have determined is a part of our brain that continues developing until our mid-twenties. For that reason, emphasizing moral character in children and interpreting their actions as good or bad is not helpful. As we get older, we refine our actions in response to our feelings. You are beginning that work now. I think it's great you are talking with people about these feelings. Have you spoken with your therapist about where the origin of these feelings might be coming from?

I would offer as well that it sounds like you rely on rationale and logic to engage with your shame. That only goes so far because the shameful thoughts in your head also connect to a physical body experience (you think of harming someone and you wince). Many people incorporate body based practices to overcome their shame and heal from troubling pasts. Have you ever tried meditation or exercise to regulate your emotions?

[thefinalribbon]

Hi Lili, thank you for replying to me. This is a lot more people that I anticipated, thank you so much.

How could I give myself that same consolation? I harmed them. Everyone speaks about those with high drives for sex so badly, how can I not see that as something to be ashamed of in myself? There's no way I could give consolation.

I saw a video recently of a black woman talking about trauma she still carries as an adult that she garnered as a kid, trauma stemming from other kids' racism. As a POC, I can relate, but if it's like you say, if we're not supposed to heavily morally police kids like that, then...? I don't know. Whatever the case, I'm haunted by how my actions could still be with them. I deserve the shame obviously, but that also means it's nearly impossible for me to move on. I'd say the origin of these feelings would be my struggles with gender identity. "How could you be a woman when you've hurt women growing up?", stuff like that.

I go on walks, regularly. It helps clear my mind somedays, but then the thoughts come back whenever I stop, or sometimes even persist during the walks. I can't sit still and in quiet long enough for meditation.

[Latha]

Hello again, thefinalribbon! I realize you were replying to lilikoi--I hope it is alright that I respond while I'm here today.

As a POC, I can relate, but if it's like you say, if we're not supposed to heavily morally police kids like that, then...?

I might be able to guess at what lilikoi meant in this context. Not making broad moral judgements about children's essential character based on their actions isn't the same as approving of and allowing everything that they do. When children act in racist ways, the grownups around them do still have the obligation to guide them to be better, to help them learn to be ethical members of their communities and to protect children of color.

I'd say the origin of these feelings would be my struggles with gender identity. "How could you be a woman when you've hurt women growing up?"

From what I understand, your hesitance around giving yourself grace for your actions in the past comes down to this: you hurt people, so you deserve to be hurt. You hurt people, so you don't deserve happiness in life. Instinctively, I get the appeal of this reasoning, because I, (like you, and like any other person in the world) have hurt people and acted in ways that I regret. That said, I have to ask: what good does your suffering do? What purpose does it serve? I can't see how it would heal any possible harm caused by your actions in the past. It couldn't help those people now either. It just seems like it would increase the amount of pain in the world. Why should you suffer when it doesn't have any positive effects?

You can acknowledge that you did not do the right thing and take responsibility for your actions while allowing yourself to be happy. You can hold on to the lessons you've learned without continuing to punish yourself. There is no contradiction there. Rather, giving yourself grace will make it easier for you to use your energy to actually help people--to be a trustworthy and reliable friend and ally and member of your community. Your suffering might feel justified, but it is also draining, and will keep you from engaging with the world and doing all the good you could do. Because I do believe you could do good. Just thinking of what we've spoken about in this thread, too many people don't care nearly enough about consent and respecting boundaries--issues that clearly are important to you. You can bring those values to any space you are in, and it will benefit by your presence.

I'd say the origin of these feelings would be my struggles with gender identity. "How could you be a woman when you've hurt women growing up?"

I hate to break it to you, but being a woman does not preclude someone from hurting other women. "Women's spaces" are not a paradise where no one is ever hurtful or abusive. Women and girls can be hurtful and even abusive towards other women and girls. They can also recognize that is wrong and grow as people. If you were a woman, you would be like many other women in this way.

Everyone speaks about those with high drives for sex so badly, how can I not see that as something to be ashamed of in myself?

Honestly, who is this everyone? I feel pretty sure that no one here would say it is a problem for someone to have a lot of interest in sex: sex is pleasurable, and beneficial in many ways--I could only recommend it if that is what you want.

I don't have the context of what these people are saying to make a full evaluation, but I think a high interest in sex cannot be a problem. On the other hand, pressuring a partner to have sex when only you want it is. It is possible people associate that behavior with wanting sex more... but that isn't right of them

[thefinalribbon]

Hi again, Latha. I don't mind at all, no worries.

I don't have an answer for you. The suffering has no real purpose. I recognize that you're right. In my head, it's the punishment for me, and by suffering, I'm almost, "stealing" their pain and giving it to myself, even though, like you said, that's not how that works. I guess I choose to suffer because I struggle with allowing myself happiness.

I've had female friends tell me they feel safe around me, in a way that they usually don't with men. I take this as a sign of pride, and that I've grown, but am always plagued by the thought in the back of my head if I should tell them what I've done in the past, as I don't "deserve" their comfort. Logically, I know that I've improved, and try to remind myself of that. I know a lot of men don't care about these issues, I hope I can make a small difference. Thank you for believing in me.

I struggle a lot of with putting women on pedestals. I know what you're saying is true. I've had family and friends tell me some of the stuff they've been subjected to by other women, including those sexual in nature. I'm always wrongly thinking that it's "less worse". But how can I, as a male, put myself in the same "league" these women? That's where my mind lands.

People online would be the "everyone". To be fair, it's never something I hear much in real life, at least not yet. But online, I'm always hearing women talk about how they don't understand why sex is so important to men, and why they want it so much. But then, I realize it could be less having a high sex drive itself is the bad thing, but rather a general way of centralizing the issues with men in general. Bringing up sex everywhere, doing whatever they can to get it, openly and publicly sexualizing women, etc. Like how you said, it could just be the association of it.

That's the stem of all of it. My sex drive, hobbies, personality, ways of acting, my male socialization and privilege, none of it seem fitting of a "woman". But, all of that would be able to be gotten over, it's the fact that I've hurt women (and a man), in the past. That alone is the biggest reason I can't accept it. I'm repeating myself though, and I apologize.

[Anya]

Hey thefinalribbon,

It's totally understandable to me why you feel the way you've expressed here. When we engage in behaviors we regret, our brains usually try and figure out the best way to get out of then having to feel that guilty feeling it comes with. Often, the easiest way to not feel this feeling is to replace it with another, bigger feeling, like suffering, anger, and or self-loathing. It's easier to hate than it is to forgive, do you agree? It feels wrong, uncomfortable, and undeserved. But that's you brain trying to keep clinging to that blanket feeling of suffering to not have to actually do the work of letting yourself be deserving of forgiveness.

I know you feel undeserving of this. But like both Latha and Char mentioned earlier, it's clear to me as well that you care about all of this and want to do better. This is how I know you are deserving of getting past it. As people we are constantly in motion and doing the best we can. I think that if you're truly committed to doing better, like it does seem like you are, the best way out is going to, uncomfortably, be through.

It seems that in all of this there is still a lot of just sexual shame in general, and to this, i'd like to share a resource with you: Is Sex Positivity Just Another Version Of The Male Gaze?
It also seems that there might be an idea here that men are just "sexual animals" in a way where they can get away with or are drawn to things not felt by women, so i'd like to share this article of ours that might be helpfl in also thinking about what a health ymale sexuality looks like: I Worry That Because I'm A Man, I Am Going To Sexually Abuse Someone.

How is all of this feeling for you?

[thefinalribbon]

Hi, Anya. I apologize if I sound robotic in my replies and thanking of everyone replying to me, I've never been good at talking. But, of course, thank you. I don't mean to sound so robotic.

It feels both understanding, and misunderstanding? I understand shame gets me nowhere. I understand, through the replies of you and others, that forgiveness is something I should strive for.

The articles you linked were nice. It's going to take awhile, if ever, for me to get over sexual shame I've instilled within myself, but reading these, and others have helped me grasp a little bit. I'm just worried. I don't want to hurt others again, and so that translates into feeling shame for my common "urges". How would you recommend I go through the process of working towards forgiveness, if I may ask?

[Tara]

Hi, thefinalribbon:

I am so glad other volunteers were able to bring you comfort and peace of mind. I also agree self-forgiveness is crucial to move on. You also deserve to heal and live a happy life. I am no expert in how to engage in self-forgiveness, but it is a process that requires acceptance and acknowledgement that you have learned something. Both of those are so important in the healing process because sometimes we cannot learn something without making the mistake first. If you can consider this in that light, knowing that you will move forward in a new or different way, you can feel free from the burdens of the past. The past cannot be changed or corrected, but it can be utilized in ways that make our future even better. That is how I see moving on and part of forgiveness. If you can treat yourself in the same way you would treat a friend who is asking for forgiveness, you can see through the mistake to a person who genuinely struggled and wants to do better. Does that help at all?

[thefinalribbon]

Hi, Tara.

Thank you thinking highly of me enough to believe I deserve to be happy. I like your quote, "sometimes we cannot learn something without making the mistake first". Of course, I wish I never made the mistake, and forgiving myself will take a long time, but your response, along with everyone else is showing me that it is something I deserve to work towards and have.

It helps, a lot. Even if I don't feel deserving of it, it helps even if I feel "guilty" for accepting the help. Thank you, deeply.

[Latha]

I'm glad this conversation helped, thefinalribbon! Please feel free to ask if you want to discuss anything else. <3